Why the TCS Xtreme costs what it costs...........

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kevinlongisland
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Why the TCS Xtreme costs what it costs...........

Post by kevinlongisland » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:34 am

In response to this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=11116&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


First, thank you for your comments toyo, there is nothing more i respect than another vendor suggesting someone else's product and defending it. thank you.

i guess the biggest downfall of the Xtreme is that it appears that you are getting nothing. but on the contrary, this is what is included:

Xtreme Parts List:

• Steering
o 2 AE Mounts
o 4 links with hardware (25mm, 16mm, 14mm, 2 washers and 3 nuts each set)
• Battery Plate and Hardware (2 countersunk screws and 2 nuts)
• Rear lower shock mount
o Standoff (2 screws, 14mm, 10mm)
o 2 countersunk screws and 2 nuts
• 2 Heim joints
o 2 Large bolts
o 2 4-40 screws
• Front lower shock mount
o Standoff (2 screws, 14mm, 10mm)
o ESC Plate
o 2 countersunk screws and 2 nuts
• Backbone
o Upper shock Standoffs and hardware (3 16mm screws each)
o Body Posts and button head screws (3 button head screws)
o 4 links and hardware
 Front 40mm with spacers, Rear 30mm no spacer
 4 16mm with nuts and washers
o RX plate and hardware (1 button head and nut)
• Zip-ties

also, the material is allot more than you think. Second, the labor required to make the parts.

lets look at the material. the backbone is made from tube that’s special ordered from out-of-state. it costs $6 per foot. the backbone is about 1 1/2 feet. that’s $9 for just the material, no machining done to it. There are 3 different sets of holes in the backbone drilled at three different angles. That takes time. The simple little lower shock standoffs that you would think cost $0.20 a piece, cost me $2.50 each!!!!!! As krod clod pointed out, heim joints are damned expensive also.

Also, because demand is high, i have had to outsource some of the parts. I have someone else make me the links now, and it's costing me more money.

krod clod, thank you for your comments. you pointed out a big part of the cost. the development. also, i have spent allot of money on small batteries to test, most of which did not work and were a waste of money. that was a direct loss of a good sum of $$. who else is testing these small packs? i offer my test results freely to the community (I’m mostly on RCC and my results are there).

As for demand, like i said above, i can't keep up right now. i have a waiting list.

I hope in the future the price will go down. Also, unlike rcguy and the gecko, which has been produced for over 9 years i believe, this is a new product and a new design. Where cell phones free when they first came out? No, they were like $1000 and the size of a small laptop computer.

"A couple of 1/4" thick pieces 2"X1" That have been tapped and mounted to the arm. $3.00 at most!"

how long do you think it takes to mill the angle, then precisely drill all three holes to the correct dimensions and depth, mill a radius in the full length on the bottom, then hand tap all those holes? About 20 minutes to make that part, maybe more because we hand tap those holes and that takes time. A machinist makes how much per hour, divide that by 3 and maybe that’s the cost of the part.

halgar, thank you too for your comments.

toyo talked about time. not including the months of initial development, for about 6 weeks surrounding the introduction, i spent all my time on this project. DAY and NIGHT to get the prototype done and the first few out. then, i continued to work to make sure everything was correct and quality controlled the first couple rigs myself. assembled each one COMPLETELY on axles with servos and everything else by myself to assure everything was correct. I still QC the trucks myself when they go out, but not to the degree just described.

As far as people rushing out to get them, I can’t keep up with demand now. Also, in the competition community, i have no doubt that once people start competing with them that the Xtreme will be the chassis to beat. i have allot of comp crawling under my belt and this truck just outperforms those other rigs by a good margin. it's a design leap and i feel confident in it's performance. Also, it was never intended to look like a real truck. And anyway, does any product today look like products made 5 or 10 years ago. What did the rock crawlers of 5 years ago look like?

Some of you talked about getting allot of material with your chassis and the stick is barely any material. well, it's dirt cheap to have a water jet guy cut out a million geckos, Inets, V3s, or CX's, even if it’s more material. Maybe $4 a plate. So that’s what, 4 plates at $4, is $16, why do they charge so much? The stick backbone is $9 in material, special order from out of state, and a good amount of a machinists time. It's easy to look at something and say it's $23 in material, and 1 hours build time, without realizing what it really costs.

I charge based on the time i spend, and the cost of the material as i have to pay for them. That means paying the guy that makes the links for me, because myself, nor the machinist working with me has the time to make them. So i pay what you would pay for a set of links, etc. Also, there is one thing you guys haven’t considered. Overhead. How much does it cost for web hosting, domain names, paypal fees, packaging and shipping supplies, etc.

Well, I’m glad I read through the entire post and am finally done. I hope i have cleared some things up and answered some questions. I don't want to offend anyone, and i assure you that i am not a greedy individual charging an extraordinary amount for something I only put $23 into. Sorry if it has to be so expensive, wish I was a large manufacturer and could pop these things out and sell them to you guys for $120. But i can’t at this point. Hopefully one day. Take it easy guys and go enjoy those rocks!

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JuBean
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Post by JuBean » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:07 am

On a somewhat related note, are there any videos up online that show the TCS in action? I have not seen anything while poking around the web and I have wanted to see one in action since I saw the pics of it for the first time.

shagrat69
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Post by shagrat69 » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:39 pm

um i have to say i liked the stick more before kevin posted this thread. :? it seems the creators opinion of what he has CAN sway an opinion. as awsome as i think the stick is, i would NEVER purchase one now. thanks for voicing your comments. :D




















blah blah blah i can hear you now. but i am the "people" and a potential customer so my opinion most likely isn't just my own. good or bad.

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kevinlongisland
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Post by kevinlongisland » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:50 pm

shagrat69 wrote:um i have to say i liked the stick more before kevin posted this thread. :? it seems the creators opinion of what he has CAN sway an opinion. as awsome as i think the stick is, i would NEVER purchase one now. thanks for voicing your comments. :D

blah blah blah i can hear you now. but i am the "people" and a potential customer so my opinion most likely isn't just my own. good or bad.
shagrat, i would like to know what made you feel that way? i thought my response was not at all opinionated, i tried my best to only include facts. I guess being a vendor has it's cons. things are easier when you are just a regular member. sucks! oh well.

jubean, i have to get out and shoot some good video. i have some but they don't show the capabilities of the truck.

CrawlinMaxx
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Post by CrawlinMaxx » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:52 pm

owell, you can't make eveyone happy :roll:

here are a couple short vids that Kev had posted awhile back

http://www.thecrawlerstore.com/Movies/T ... _BB3_1.MOV
http://www.thecrawlerstore.com/Movies/T ... _BB3_2.MOV

shagrat69
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Post by shagrat69 » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:26 pm

ok i really like the stick man. if your post went more like....

the stick is the rezults of a year of R&D and we have made about 15 diffrent versions that didn't work up to par before we came to this design that we have released. the machine shop time to get the design right and to produce quanity for sale is not cheap and has created a high overhead in the costs of production of these stick chassis. this is why it costs what it does.


all i got out of your long post was someone grasping at every screw to justify there costs. i mean how many times did you list 2 counter sunk screws in the parts list. i am a builder and fabricator not only in RC but in the real world too. i travel all over the world working on Web Leader newpapper presses and i have to do alot of on the spot fabrications. so i know how hard it is to make something from nothing and make it work RIGHT. it takes time, brains, and sometimes alot of trial&error to get your finnished product. i get paid a darn good amount of money to do what i do.....even if thats not much at all sometimes (like making links) i get paid the same amount no matter what i'm working on, just like a machine shop. they cost money no matter how complicated, small, large the piece is.

so what i'm sayin is the same thing i said in the first thread. don't use the materials as a reason AT ALL to justify your costs. stand behind the R&D and the machine time and costs as your reasons. the more the cost of the materials is mentioned the less i belive in the R&D and production costs that you claim to have into the stick. i mean why stress the few dollars in materials more then just mentioning that yeah you also had the little costs of materials on top of all the R&D and production costs.

i have never seen "2 bolts" listed as a selling feature before. if you took a gecko or a buddget Inet chassis down to ever screw and washer then it would make a much longer list the what you have for your stick. listing it that way to justify your costs just shows more grasping for justifying your price. almost seems as tho your not to sure if what your chargeing for it is right.

BTW if your paying $9 for that aluminum tube then i strongly suggest you continue your R&D and lower your costs in that area. seems unreasonably high for such a simple part. are you absolutly sure you need special ordered tubing for that??? maybe it's cuz i live in a metal flooded area or sumtin but we have thousands of metal shops between Ft Lauderdale and Miami and i can get ANY type of metal i need very EZly. i can even get alum. tube with polished inside and anodized for a better price then what your sayin your costs are for you stick tubing. sorry to point all this out and all as i do like the design of the stick and would like to have one but for that cost i'll do all my own R&D and make my own. not everyone has the option to make there own so i'm sure your chassis will sell just fine. it is bad to the bone and they do awsome in the comps. i don't don't like the use of the little cost of the materials being used to justify the high costs of the chassis. stand behind your products R&D and high costd of production. thats all i'm sayin :D

JasonInAugusta
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Post by JasonInAugusta » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:48 pm

Shag...Ford uses 6 bolts as a selling feature on their trucks.

Regardless. IF anyone thinks they can do better, and that "it's only $XX.XX worth of aluminum", go buy $XX.XX worth of aluminum and see what it gets you.

I honestly don't think Kevin (or ANY manufacturer for that matter) should have to justify the cost of their product to consumers.

When someone nit-picks Kevin like you guys have done (did the same crap to Toyo about the Bulu chassis :roll: ), well, people kinda feel a need to stick up for themselves and show that, contrary to popular belief, they're not making a fortune on the chassis. In reality they're doing good to break even on the first few runs.

You're also forgetting about the patent process and the money spent on that. Get your own aluminum, make your own chassis (heck put your hydraulics on it while you're at it) and sell it.

Then let Kevin's lawyer slap you with a cease and desist letter.

Everyone says they can do it better and for cheaper. I have yet to see it.
If it's worth building, it's worth over-building!

shagrat69
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Post by shagrat69 » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 pm

JasonInAugusta wrote:Shag...Ford uses 6 bolts as a selling feature on their trucks.

Regardless. IF anyone thinks they can do better, and that "it's only $XX.XX worth of aluminum", go buy $XX.XX worth of aluminum and see what it gets you.

I honestly don't think Kevin (or ANY manufacturer for that matter) should have to justify the cost of their product to consumers.

When someone nit-picks Kevin like you guys have done (did the same crap to Toyo about the Bulu chassis :roll: ), well, people kinda feel a need to stick up for themselves and show that, contrary to popular belief, they're not making a fortune on the chassis. In reality they're doing good to break even on the first few runs.

You're also forgetting about the patent process and the money spent on that. Get your own aluminum, make your own chassis (heck put your hydraulics on it while you're at it) and sell it.

Then let Kevin's lawyer slap you with a cease and desist letter.

Everyone says they can do it better and for cheaper. I have yet to see it.
um......please read my post before you go and talk crap to me directly. i clearly state that i belive in the stick chassis and the R&D that went into it. i am only stateing over and over again about the use of cost of raw materials as justification of a high priced product.....unless it's gold. i also clearly state that the R&D that went into the stick should be justification enuf to charge the price so stop using the cost of raw materials as a reason for high costs.

and did FORD just list 6 bolts as there sales or was it more like they use 6 lug nutz per wheel as an added safty feature for there customers. mentioning the complete parts list is fine but not as your justifications for cost.


ya know what....just forget it. i said i didn't want in this crap from the begining so screw me and my outsider customer opinions on your tactics to sell your product. i like the darn stick thing and support the thing and it's high price. if you took the time to read my posts you would know that. so screw me for tryin to help you guy's defend you chassis by giving you any advise on how you presented your reasoning for charging a high rate. i'm sure that if Alex had this same thing to say you wouldn't come back at him like this :?

actually i hope Alex comes in and offers his opinion on this. be it good or bad as to what i've been saying. i am only giving my opinion here.

and heck yeah i'd like to put my hydrolic setup on a stick chassis. i'm sorry if i don't have the cash flow to bust out with the design i have in my head. BUT i am in the process of getting what i need to make the whole setup myself. i'm not in a hurry cuz this IS a hobby and ment to take up my free time. :wink:

like i have said in many posts jason, i am VERY happy that you got your design to work and to work right. i think it's very frigin cool man. i don't understand what you have against me personally tho. just cuz i questioned your design before??? please i hope it's more then that cuz if anything it's peoples opinions like mine that drive people to make the idea's work. heck what do you want?? and apoligy... fine man i'm sorry i dobted your hydro design and you proved me wrong. i still stand by my design and the fact that it will work and cost way less. thats all i ever real had to say about any of it.

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Post by team prp » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:24 pm

I think some of the problem is a lot of guys in RC like to have vehicles that have a "cool" look or are more scale in appearance. When they see a photo of something that essentially looks like a solid rod with 4 links attached and they see what the price is, you are going to get a lot of negative replies. Your initial reaction is not going to be about the amount of work and hardware that went in to it. You are going to react to the look of it. I think that's why as lot of people have a hard time with this truck. Even though it probably works awesome a lot of guys still want a truck that "looks cool" or is more realisitic.

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Post by rbgerrish » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:01 pm

If people are buying as many as you can make, then it's not too expensive.

Ryan

JasonInAugusta
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Post by JasonInAugusta » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:47 pm

shagrat69 wrote:
JasonInAugusta wrote:Shag...Ford uses 6 bolts as a selling feature on their trucks.

Regardless. IF anyone thinks they can do better, and that "it's only $XX.XX worth of aluminum", go buy $XX.XX worth of aluminum and see what it gets you.

I honestly don't think Kevin (or ANY manufacturer for that matter) should have to justify the cost of their product to consumers.

When someone nit-picks Kevin like you guys have done (did the same crap to Toyo about the Bulu chassis :roll: ), well, people kinda feel a need to stick up for themselves and show that, contrary to popular belief, they're not making a fortune on the chassis. In reality they're doing good to break even on the first few runs.

You're also forgetting about the patent process and the money spent on that. Get your own aluminum, make your own chassis (heck put your hydraulics on it while you're at it) and sell it.

Then let Kevin's lawyer slap you with a cease and desist letter.

Everyone says they can do it better and for cheaper. I have yet to see it.
um......please read my post before you go and talk crap to me directly.
Only thing I said directly to you was that Ford uses 6 bolts (used in the bed/frame) as a selling point on their trucks. :roll:

After that I said if anyone thinks they can do better..."you guys", "you", etc after that point is used in a collective sense.
If it's worth building, it's worth over-building!

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Post by mgtmania » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:50 pm

I guess all I can say is don't tell me what it costs you show me what I get for my money. When I had my house built the builder didn't tell me how much nails cost or the wages of the carpenter and designers make. They showed me what I get for my money. As soon as I read how much the material costs and how many screws you used and how long it takes to drill each hole I think this guy is trying to sell an over price piece of crap. But if you would have just shown what the capabilities are maybe I might think differently. A product is only worth what people will spend on it. If you got people lined up waiting for these then it is probably worth it. And if you can put a coin in your pocket for your efforts rock on. People aren't dumb they know that the stick doesn't cost 230 dollars to make. But if you show people that this is what they need then usually they don't mind paying the price. That is just my .02

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:06 pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
poor people.
Shaggyrat. You kill me.
Keep saying stuff. It's hilarious!

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Post by shagrat69 » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:19 pm

JasonInAugusta wrote:(heck put your hydraulics on it while you're at it) and sell it.
sorry i musta miss understood this comment then.


why the fug am i under attack here. you know where to stick the stick then :evil: i bet it can crawl there all day!!! lol :wink:

i like the stick design and i said the price is fine for the amount of R&D that musta went into it. what more do you want from me. i'm not gonna buy one if thats what the case is. i don't know why you rccrawler guys have a problem with me. i never did anything to you guy's. but if that's what makes you happy then hate away on me!!!

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